Discussions With Robin

April 18, 2002
Coffeewench - Robin
I obviously chose the band.

I just want to comment on the vomiting...it's not like regular vomiting. It feels like you have to burp *really* hard and instead of air coming up, food comes back up. It's a completely different sensation than vomiting.

And the risk of slippage is significantly lower than it used to be because they now use a couple of stitches to hold the band in place AND they fill it slowly. Too fast of a fill was the main culprit of slips in the past. This way the band adheres to the stomach with scar tissue and gets really secure before doing anything drastic to it (thus the slower weight loss in the beginning because you aren't super-restricted).

And I always feel really full after a few bites as long as I don't flush it down with liquid (a concern with all pouch surgeries). And I confess to flushing stuff down sometimes (especially if I'm really really enjoying it).

I wouldn't even know I had a foreign object in me if I didn't see it on an xray--honestly. I feel nothing.

Another pro to the band--slower weight loss means better skin absorption. It is pregnancy friendly (if you get pregnant they just take the fluid out of the band and you can gain normal pregnancy weight w/out fear of nutritional deficiency). Also, I never lost my hair and I don't worry about unusually foul smelling gas.
 
The biggest, most obvious factor of all for me...
 
I can convert to something else if the band fails me for whatever reason. You can never go backwards with the bypass. 
 
It's my opinion based on observing a couple thousand people with bands on an email list that if the band is *properly managed* meaning that you get timely adjustments and you follow the basic principles (they are pretty standard for all surgeries) then you will succeed.
 
The only time I would have my reservations about the band would be if you TRULY 100% are subsisting on less than 1500 calories a day to begin with and you still can't lose weight. I've read a lot of studies that people GROSSLY under-report how many calories they eat in a day, so that is why I stress truly (because I know that people like that DO exist). In that case I would think you'd need something with more of a kicker. Although I suppose hypothetically it could be argued that if you got the band tight enough to cut down to 800 calories a day perhaps weight loss could be achieved. But this is just me thinking out loud.


I know it's difficult to decide as the band is so new to the United States. However it's been done in Europe and Australia for over 10 years and it is those countries "Gold Standard". They prefer it over the RNY and Australia actually has a higher long term weight loss maintenance with the band. Basically because you don't get the rebound weight gain with the band (you just get it tightened) and there is no "window of opportunity". Basically you open a new window every time you get your band adjusted--even if you go years in between adjustments.
 
Just tossing this info into the debate :-)
 
Robin
 
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April 18, 2002
Coffeewench -Robin
 
When my band is nice and tight and suddenly the smallest of portions seem gargantuan to me, a switch literally shuts off in my brain about food. I know this is not unique to me as other bandsters have experienced it as well. The only thing I can compare it to is when I took phen/fen and for the first time in my LIFE I felt normal in regards to food. Food was purely fuel and I could have cared less if it was a salad or a pizza with extra cheese. Therefore, making good food choices becomes a snap. Fast food establishments don't even cross my line of vision when I'm driving. Diet Sodas taste funky (I used to be a major Diet Coke addict). I feel like I enjoy food more than I EVER did pre-op because I stop to really really chew it and I taste layers of textures and flavors I wasn't aware of before. 
 
I've found that dumping became irrelevant because I was so accustomed to small portions that any kind of large amount of sugar began to be too much and it would make me nauseous. It stopped appealing to me altogether. I love that I can still have an occasional glass of good wine to savor and that I don't have to worry about giving up my gourmet coffee habit!:-)
 
There was a huge mental shift in my mind about mid-way through my band journey that was more liberating than even the physical changes.


 
I just stopped caring about food.
 
I feel normal.
 
Anyhow, just had to throw that in.
 
Goodnight everyone, I promised my beloved that this would be my LAST post!
 
*hugs* to you all. I know how hard this is.
 


Robin Lapband 8/24/00 -110 lbs
 
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April 19, 2002
Coffeewench - Robin
 
Hi Jen,
 
The Vertical Banded Gastropy is a completely different surgery. The Lapband is a new procedure in the United States. It was approved by the FDA this last summer. The difference between the Lapband and all other surgeries is that the Lapband is adjustable. You can literally decide if you want to cut your portion sizes in 2 or 1/16th based on how tight you make your band. This kind of flexibility is not only amazing when you're a newly post-op adjusting to re-learning how to eat, it's incredibly reassuring as a long term postop because you know that you always have it to fall back on should your situation change and you either need your band tighter or looser.
 
Yes, the surgery is not nearly as risky. There have been no deaths related to the band itself, only to surgical slips ups (I believe one woman got her stomach nicked during surgery) and that is the only one I've ever even heard of, although I presume there are more. If you have to have the band removed, they remove it laparascopically and you go back to exactly how you were preop.
 
The vomiting does not compromise nutrition because it's only a problem if you a. don't chew well enough or b. eat too much. In the first, it serves as an uncomfortable reminder to chew, chew chew your food. As you begin to chew everything to death you find that a lot of processed food tastes so NASTY that I get queasy just thinking about it. You begin to become a major food snob LOL. I think I could be a food critic now--I seriously take the most subtle of ingredients in things. I ADORE Thai food because of all the spices and ingredients in the food. 
 
Okay, I digress. In regards to fullness and satiety. This is tricky. You kind of have to re-learn full. If you eat too much, it comes right back up the esophagus. NORMALLY I chew my food well enough to allow enough to fall into my "bigger" stomach that I'm left with a feeling of extreme fullness AND satiety. However, there have been times where I'm just not satisfied because I don't have that warm fuzzy feeling in my stomach and I don't feel like I had enough. I've learned a fine balance in this regard. For example I'll usually start out with a few bites of something I know will go down easy--soup, mashed potatoes, something with gravy, or just a well-lubed sandwich (lots of mayo). Once a get a few "good" bites in I'm already on my way to full and I concentrate on just eating protein. Usually I can eat my serving of protein that's about it. If it's a sandwich, the rest of the sandwich goes uneaten, just the meat (and I usually manage to sneak in a tomato). 
 


I hate the feeling of Thanksgiving full now. Because to me it indicated FOOD COMA just around the bend. I despise that feeling so much now (too reminiscent of the old me perhaps?) that I've grown to really enjoy my "new" feeling of full. It isn't always as satisfying but at 18 months post op I can tell you that you learn how to work things out for yourself. I think my "full factor" is much less now just in general. Occasionally I'll buy one of those fruit smoothies with added protein and I can maybe get 2 of it down before I'm feeling painfully stuffed (obviously the smoothies go right through the band). Do you always feel satisfied after meals? No. Do you learn how to? Yes. 
 
Yesterday I went out to eat with my friend. I wasn't really hungry so I ordered a side salad with turkey on it. Through the course of the meal I picked off the turkey and tomatoes, ate them, and then ate about 3 regular bites of salad. I felt STUFFED. Both satisfied *and* full. Of course the ranch dressing probably slid that chewed up turkey right on down the stoma to give my bottom tummy something to digest while the lettuce immediately clogged up the top to make me feel stuffed. It's a balance. And it becomes unconscious--I don't put much thought into how I eat these days it just is.
 
Everyone is different when it comes to adjusted. Some people have made it to goal with no adjustments!!! Blasphemy! There is a 65 year old woman on my Bandsters list who went down to Tijuana for surgery because US docs told her she was too old. She lost 100 lbs in a year, is at goal and never had a fill. I believe she now weighs around 135 lbs. She said she just never really needed one--as long as she was losing she didn't need to bother. And that is truly how you gage it. If you're losing (even slowly) you DON'T need to be filled. I've had 6 fills, but 3 were duds (long story about being the FDA Trial, don't get me started).
 
Anyone can benefit from band surgery. Older Bandsters have been just as successful as younger ones. Some doctors will say that the band isn't great for "Sweet Eaters". Yet some self-described sweet eaters did just fine with it. I remember my surgeon told me that I was a perfect candidate because I was a European style eater--my weaknesses were cheeses and fats and large portions. 
 
I feel a need to include one more comment in this response. People always say that your decision should be between yourself and your doctor. I would say it should be between yourself and your research. There are a lot of VERY biased doctors out there, a lot of whom don't know much about the band and are only relying on the pathetic FDA statistics as their only source of information.
 
The FDA Trial Stats indicated that you could expect to lose 38% of the weight with a Lapband. These stats were taken from the first hundred patients in the Clinical Trial Phase A. 
 


Let me tell, you, I was in Phase D of the US Clinical Trial and it was STILL a fiasco at that point. There were very definite REASONS for that lower weight loss. The main one--the doctors weren't filling the bands. It's kind of pointless if you don't get the band managed and adjusted. There is a doctor in Seattle, Dr. Fox, I know his name has come up here and is usually controversial. He LOVES the Lapband. Aside from his malpractice suits and other problems, the guy saw it's potential. The Seattle Bandsters have one of the highest rates of weight loss because the docs up there are very aggressive with band fills. At one point Dr. Fox was saying his average was 95% of EWL. He also was prescribing phentermine to get people through the healing process to kill their appetite until they got a tight fill. Whether people agree with his tactics or not, you can't argue with his success.
 
There is a doctor in the Bay Area here who tells people to expect to lose 40lb with the band. I suppose that would be consistent with FDA expectations. In spite of that dismal prediction, people are still flocking to him. You can't imagine their joy to connect with us Bandsters and realize that getting to goal is not only possible, but probable. 
 
Speaking of all this band band band talk...
 
I really need an adjustment. LOL
 
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April 19, 2002
Wednesday
 
Hi Marissa, 
 
I know that Robin went through a lot on the lap-band, but I will throw in my 2 cents for you.
 
I had the Lapband done 9.5 months ago. I have lost 95lbs. I am extremely happy with my decision and would definitely do it again! I was in the hospital for only 24 hours, out of work for 4 days, and working out again in 1 week. I have only had my band adjusted once, but I am in the process of getting an approval for another adjustment. I know for a fact I will not reach goal unless I do. I loose about 7-8lbs a month right now, but even that is slowing down. So, an adjustment is in order. 
 
I know some people do not have problems with their port, but mine is very prominent. I think it is because I am so close to goal. The port, by the way, is the piece that is directly under the skin that allows the adjustments to be made.
 
I want to take some time to answer some of Julie's concerns:
 


First, I am extremely satisfied with the meals that I eat. It is basically the same food that a Gastric Bypass person would be able to eat only more. I can eat sugar and not dump. Like Robin said, though, since we haven't been eating a lot of sugar because we are following the "rules" we will feel nauseous/icky after eating to much sugar, but we won't dump. I have had regular ice cream, cake, and alcohol since my surgery with no problems whatsoever. I do this in moderation because I still want to reach goal. 
 
Second, Vomiting. I have never in my 9.5 months since surgery vomited or burped up food. I have had no experience with this at all. I think people with Gastric Bypass have vomited more. Which means I am absorbing all that I eat. 
 
Like Robin said, I had my band sutured to my stomach to alleviate the risk of slippage. I didn't have my band "filled" with fluid until 6 weeks out after the sutures healed. Of all the people that I have talked to no has had there band slip.
 
I eat anywhere between 800-1000 calories a day. It can be more if we go out to dinner. I will give you my menu for what I ate yesterday: Breakfast: Orville Redenbacher's Caramel Popcorn cake spread with 1 tbsp of regular peanut butter.
 
Snack: (after working out) 2 a Metrex Protein+ Bar
 
Lunch: 3oz of thin/lean steak on the grill small salad w/regular ranch dressing (onion, avocado, cauliflower, tomato, olives)
 
Snack: 1 cup of Watermelon(yummy!)
 
Dinner: 3oz lemon/garlic chicken breast on the grill 2tbsp of rice w/parkay butter spray small salad w/regular ranch dressing (onion, avocado, cauliflower, tomato, olives:
 
Dessert: 2 sugar free popsicles
 
I am very satisfied with this. I am eating regular, normal meals just less of it and yes I am losing weight! I think my weight loss is right up there with Gastric Bypass. 
 
I don't think, Julie, that you will ever feel the "unbutton my pants and want to take a nap" feeling with any surgery. If you allow yourself to eat that much with any surgery you are going to regret it! I have only done it twice since surgery and it is NOT a pleasant feeling!
 


Getting adjusted, like I said I have only been adjusted once and that was at 6 weeks out and I have lost 95lbs. I do think that the more adjustments you get probably the faster you will lose. Since so far I have been happy with my weight loss up to this point I just couldn't see getting the adjustment. Everyone is different, though. Like Robin said, when you get adjusted it is like starting all over again. I need that now so I can reach goal. 
 
I think that I have posted this before, but this is just my recommendation and opinion, not backed by a doctor that I know of-if you have more than 100-120lbs to lose this is not a good surgery. It is extremely hard and takes diligence! Because you don't dump and for me don't vomit I have had to be VERY careful.   Robin actually listed the Dr. that did my surgery, Dr. Raul Rosenthal at Cleveland Clinic. The address and phone number have changed, though. They moved to a nice new building in Weston, off of the Sawgrass. The new info is:
 
Rual J. Rosenthal, MD Mark Lieberman, MD  Division of Vascular and General Surgery Cleveland Clinic Of Weston 2950 Cleveland Clinic Blvd. Weston, FL 33331 (954) 659-5000
 
It is so big and nice that they have the whole street named after them!  LOL. Dr. Rosenthal was great! He is very caring, but his staff are witches! I think I have heard that about all doctors staff. 
 
I seem to always posts novels! I hope this information will help calms some fears and help with some decisions. 
 
Good Luck to all!
 
Wednesday 264/169/140!
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April 29, 2002
Coffeewench - Robin
 
Jane,
 
My experience--it was more work with a looser band. I had "watch what I eat" much more carefully. Once my band was cinched it was all but effortless. Wednesday has never thrown up--which to me indicates she has yet to experience the enthrallment of a tight tight fill! LOL But look how awesome she's done. 
 
The only "work" I put in is following rules that all of us WLS must follow. I eat my protein first. I try not to drink with any meal. I do NOT drink fluids that contain calories. I chew chew chew. That's about it. 
 
This is how I've always mentally dealt with the change:
 


I never deny myself ANYTHING. But I tell myself I can have "FillInTheBlank" AFTER I eat my protein and then my veggies. For instance if I want a roll, I say sure, I'll have that, but not until my protein is done. Not until I've had some veggies. Sometimes I still get that bite of a roll in and I'm happy. Sometimes I don't, but I'm so full I don't care. Same with dessert. If I've followed all my rules and I still have room for dessert, I go for it. I probably eat 1-2 desserts a week if that. I forget about them. Although in a lot of ways I satisfy my sweet tooth with my coffee.
 
As long as you're willing to not drink all your calories down you'll do great. As long as you're willing to make an effort to eat protein first and foremost, you'll find the rest just falls into place.
 
It's really hard in the beginning before you get adjusted. It *is* like dieting and it sucks. But the rewards come later. I really look forward to seeing Wednesday post after her next fill, because I think she's going to have a different take on things. I'm the fill queen and everything changes with different levels--fullness, your mental needs, everything. It's a strange and wonderful phenomenon.
 
Robin
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April 19 2002
Wednesday
 
Hi Jane,  It is nowhere as hard as it was pre-band! When I used to diet pre-band there was almost a desperation to me. I was so hungry all the time that I was cranky and rude. With the band that desperation has been taken away and allows me to concentrate on making good choices. I would not have been able to lose this weight without the band. 
 
When I said that it was hard I just meant that when we eat sugar, we don't dump. We don't have the instant "dumping" sensation that Gastric Bypass people have. We have to be very careful. It becomes habit after awhile to avoid sugar, but around my period time, watch out! I do get cravings like crazy, just not "desperate" cravings like before. They are more controllable which allows me to have a bite of chocolate instead of eating the whole candy bar. That is a choice that I make.
 
Wednesday
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April 19, 2002
Coffeewench - Robin
 
For my next fill I'm going to fly down to Tijuana (probably about $120 round trip) and pay Dr. Kuri $50 for a *good* fill (he's a very experienced band surgeon).  Here is Dr. Kuri's website:  http://www.lapbandsurgery.com/english/english.htm
 
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April 19, 2002


Wednesday
As far as what the port looks like Robin, Coffeewench, posted a picture under this same post.  My dr. uses saline for the fill fluid. It is perfectly safe. There is no cause for alarm with the fill process. They put you under an xray machine, then make you drink a white, chalky substance and watch it go through your stomach. They then insert a needle which is about 3-4" long into your port and fill the band with fluid. They then make you drink more icky chalky stuff to make sure the band is not to tight. It doesn't hurt at all. I am going thru the insurance process right now. I had to pay for the first fill out of pocket because my insurance changed. Not again, though.
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Saturday, April 20, 2002
From Coffee Wench, Robin
 
I'll answer these...
 
 And when you get this surgery done you don't get it filled, just implanted? Then 6 weeks later filled?    Yes, six weeks later is the standard of time to wait. It gives the stomach time to heal and the band time to "set". Often the patient does not experience a great deal of restriction during this time.
 
 Do they ever reach maximum capacity where they won't fill any more?  Yes, 4ccs. Once you get around 3ccs though even .1ccs has a huge impact on tightness. I had a doctor jack me up to 4ccs once and I was barfing my own saliva. Not fun.
 
Do the fills leak out over time? How are fills measured? By CC's? Ex: if you get 10 CC's filled in a few years would it leak to 8cc's? Is that possible?   Sometimes you lose fluid, more often than not there is air in the tube during the injection and the air escapes and leaves you feeling a little less restricted. If you get dehydrated, the body will osmosis some of the saline. But the dehydration thing is just a theory. Some people have gone years with no need for adjustments. 
 
 Is there any latex with this product?? I am deadly allergic.  I'm pretty sure it's all hard silicone. You could to go  http://www.bioenterics.com <http://www.bioenterics.com>  the place the makes the band and check. 
 
 Robin
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April 28, 2002
*Jill*
 
Hi Kymberlee~
 


When I first thought about WLS, I spoke to my PCP, who has been my internist for several years. He agreed that I needed WLS so he sent me to a surgeon who does both RNY and the lap-band. When I asked which procedure I should consider, the surgeon said the lap-band because it was the least invasive and the safest. I came out of the consult very confused. I saw the pros and cons of both surgeries, made a list and did some serious thinking.
 
I then found this site and read as much as I could. After reading the great stories, sad stories, good results, problems, etc., I sort of decided that I did not want WLS at all, maybeeeee, I might consider the lap-band but not the RNY. I did not want my pylorus bypassed and I don't want to refer to my stomach as a "pouch." I want my stomach to act as such.
 
I did not want the dumping syndrome, as that is not a "normal" way to learn to eat properly. I felt that if I was "forced" to give up certain foods for fear of dumping, mentally, down the line, this would bother me. Instant gratification is not what I want, long term healthy results, both mentally and physically are.
 
I wanted to learn how to be satisfied by eating smaller portions, rather than eliminating certain foods out of fear. Any time your mind set is to "diet" and your weight loss is successful, you feel indestructible. But, at some point, you come off your cloud and reality sets in. (At least that is what I experienced in the past).
 
I was also concerned about blockage, choking, chew, chew, chewing which I would have to be aware of for life with both the lap-band and RNY. (Strictures and such are not a life long concern)
 
Then I heard about the duodenal switch ("DS") and started researching that surgery. It sounded wonderful to me. The stomach is reduced, the pylorus is left functioning and I could have some intestines bypassed proximal rather than distal. Malnourishment was a big concern of mine. I wanted to absorb vitamins and minerals naturally through food, rather than through man made supplements and with the proximal, there would be less of a chance. 
 
With the DS, I could eat a small portion of any food in the world. Very cool. Excess fat would not be absorbed. Sounded like a dream. I would have to take only calcium and multivitamins. But, I may have unusual smelling gas! Hmmmmm.
 
There were no doctors in my medical group that perform the DS, so I had my PCP put in a request for an out of Plan surgeon. This was of course denied. I then wrote appeal letters and submitted them. A few days before the 30 day review period was over........I changed my mind.
 


I spent last weekend doing a lot of thinking about the lap-band and the duodenal switch procedures. Again, I am trying to think of WLS long, long term. Yes, I know, I can get hit by a car tomorrow, but that is not the point.  I am terribly afraid of malabsorption and malnourishment. I kept wondering about the long term effects of re-designing the intestines. Then two people on this board who have had the RNY and DS and are extremely thrilled and happy BOTH said that they have become interested in the lap-band and wished they had looked into it. I went WHOA, WHOA, let me do some more serious thinking about the lap-band.
 
1. Foreign object in body - hmmmmm, okay now, people have breast implants, pectoral implants, knee implants, hip replacements, etc. with no problems.
 
2. The band can slip, yes, but not a life-threatening problem.     3. A portal, YIKES!!!!! Okay, Jill, deal with it, it can be adjusted easily if need be. Hmmm, yeah, very true.
 
4. Don't have to worry about vitamins (which I tend to be very bad at remembering to take).
 
5. Chew, chew, chew or choke - Weeeelllll, I do eat fast, which allows me to take in more food. The average thin person chews well, eat slower, gets full faster. Okay, I can do that.
 
6. Weight loss not as effective and slower - I have always said that I prefer to lose my weight slower, rather than faster as I feel it is safer for the body. If I never reach goal, but get to 20 pounds from goal, at least I will be healthy and not malnourished. I really like this part.
7. If for some reason, I would need a revision from RNY or DS, well, it could be done, BUT if I needed the band removed, I would be just about back to normal, just a little scar tissue.
 
8. If some miracle pill or who knows what the future holds for obesity is discovered, no problem with the lap-band.
 
Last Monday, I called my insurance company and put a stop to my DS appeal. I then called my surgeon and said I wanted the lap-band. I am now waiting for approval and I feel so at peace with my decision.
 
Those were and are my thoughts. Hope this helps. Kymberlee, you need to do what you feel is best for you. Think about WLS as long term, not just instant gratification, mentally and physically.
 
Jill
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April 28, 2002
Fatgirl
 


I had the Lap-Band installed last June. Two years prior, I had been scheduled for a lap-RNY, but I had backed out of it. I just couldn't get over the malabsorption fact...worrying not alone about the vitamins I knew that were being malabsorbed, but also all of the phytochemicals, etc. My gut feeling (sorry Carnie, probably owe you a royalty check) said that this surgery was not for me. So two years later, I decided on the Lap-Band. I really think that you need to make your own decision, though. Each surgery has its benefits and risks. I really highly recommend joining numerous support groups for the various types of surgery and just lurking... and then go with what your heart says, even if it is no surgery at all. If, in the meantime, you'd like to do something to help you prepare for surgery, try taking up an exercise program. You may not lose weight, but you'll be healthier at the time of surgery. An excellent program is called, "The Spark" by Glen Gaesser.
 
OK..here are some rambling thoughts on why I chose to have a Lap-Band...these are my own honest thought...and I'm sure I'll get slammed by some people for posting them...but...
 
1. Yes, one does have a foreign object inserted, but so does the RNY and DS. (Titanium staples.) The silicone band and port can easily be removed in a lap procedure in most cases...with no harm done to your stomach or intestines. The other WLS procedures are not as easily reversed, if need be. Having said that, the Band is not recommended for people with Rheumatoid Arthritis. Let's be honest here. Bypassing the duodenum is not natural either! It's there for a reason.
 
2. It is adjustable. No window of opportunity for weight loss. If I want to lose more weight in say five years, I can have my band tightened.
 
3. No vitamin issues. No dumping. You eat like a normal person...small amounts of regular foods, even sweets.
 
4. As somebody who has IBS (irritable bowel syndrome), I was told that an RNY or DS could make this even worse. That is not something I could risk. Amazingly enough, the Lap-Band has tremendously improved my IBS...to maybe one instance/month if that. That alone is worth the price of the surgery!
 
5. Less risk of operative death or complications. Sorry, but I've read of too many people dying after an RNY operation...or suffering serious medical problems 3-5 years out. I've only heard of one death with the Band...yes, there may be more...but with every RNY group I've belonged to, there's been at least one death per month... One death of one perfectly normal person with the same hopes and dreams as me. Not always the eldest nor the fattest person, either. Why is the Lap-Band less risky? Well, to me it sort of makes sense, as the operation is less complicated and less invasive... no cutting of your stomach or intestine...(cutting the intestine puts one at great risk of infection)...etc. Yes, you can die in any surgery, but if I can, I'm going to chose the less invasive one.
 


6. The slower rate of weight loss is healthier for me, both physically and mentally. Less deflated balloon appearance too.
 
7. Can have the band deflated in case of pregnancy or medical issues.8. I know too many people who have gained back weight after an RNY...some to more than they weighed before. Their only solution, they feel, is to have more intestine bypassed. Sorry, but I just couldn't deal with the fact of permanently altering my digestive system and not keeping the weight off. If with the Band, I need to lose more weight. I can get it tightened. If I decide that I need an RNY in the future, I can do that. Why go extreme in the first place?
 
9. Of the support groups I attended for RNY and DS patients (separate groups), some people...quite honestly...had quite a nasty BO. Can't even describe what it was...smelt like digestive fluids. Blech. Not something I'm willing to risk.  These are all my own opinions. But please make your own decision. Most people are biased to their own surgery. The best way to learn about the individual surgeries is at support groups for those surgeries. I also think that you need to look at your own lifestyle and BMI prior to surgery. Personally, I think that people with a BMI under 45 (or maybe 50) should look at the Lap-Band... 45-60 RNY... 55+ DS... or something like that. For some, having a DS with a BMI of only 40 seems a bit like overkill to me.
 
FFG
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April 28, 2002
Coffeewench - Robin
 
Jill....
 
Wow did you climb in my head and sum up all of my conclusions! :-)
 
You have an amazing amount of research and knowledge backing your reasoning. I am extremely impressed. Especially for someone who doesn't have a band in yet! With your attitude and determination I can already tell you're going to have *no* problems succeeding with the band.
 


I agree with Jill and Fabfatgrl. I think that instant gratification is a really American trait which is why the RNY is *not* the gold standard in other countries. For people to presume (falsely) that they will be guaranteed they make it to goal with an RNY is kidding yourself. If I was pre-op and could use a crystal ball to show where I am now with the band and show me "closer" to goal with an RNY I'd still pick the band. That would be like someone 30 pounds overweight wanting an RNY--we'd all think they were nuts right? I'm happy and healthy even still 30 pounds from goal. Heck, even Carnie herself claims to still be frustrated at being 15 pounds from goal and that girl lives a charmed life where everything is handed to her from chefs to personal trainers. There is no magical solution. All the surgeries require compliance on the part of the patient.
 
Quite frankly I find it sad that people *want* to dump. Yes, we're all a bunch of fat morons who can't resist anything with sugar. We need to be punished for being so weak. (I'm being theatrical here, not trying to be insulting, but it's how I perceive it). Personally I had more self-confidence then that. Yes, my eating was out of control, but could I diet in the past? Yes. What was my failing point? Falling off the wagon and being incapable of recovering. Does that still happen now? Yes but I recover w/out any gain and sometimes with loss even. And it's after that I become even stronger because I am left with the knowledge that eating poorly occasionally is normal and it won't make me fat overnight. And that eliminates the guilt and from that comes a peace with food. I have no forbidden foods. I don't take vitamins, I get my vitamins from food. I don't drink protein shakes, I get my protein from food. And I probably eat less calories than are in a protein shake. When I get older and I need to start taking calcium as is now recommended over age 50 it will all be absorbed. Should I ever get pregnant again I won't give a 2nd thought, I can revel in the miracle and feel good about it 100%, no second guessing. When I was pregnant with my twins pre-op I ended up with 7 cavities in my teeth. My dentist said it was because the babies had leeched as much calcium as they could from my body (this was from someone who'd only had 2 small cavities up until age 27). If my babies were leeching that much calcium from my body while I was eating a robust diet with prenatal vitamins what could they be missing out on if I got pregnant after an RNY? It blows my mind how little thought people give the whole pregnancy issue. They hear of a few "safe" pregnancies and use that as proof? What about when those babies turn 20 and things come up that weren't know about. Maybe nothing will. But I wasn't willing to risk it. If you take me out of childbearing age I would have looked at the RNY more closely.
 
I know a lot of you had the RNY, are happy with it, want to have kids, feel secure that all will be okay, and I have no judgement about that. Everyone's life and choices are different. I'm happy for you that you lost the weight and have reclaimed your life.  But since Kymberlee asked for opinions that is mine. No intention to flame at all. Those were just the issues that kept me up at night when I was preop and researching and couldn't sleep.
 
Take care,
Robin
***********************
April 28, 2002
jllyn275
 
I posted a message with a few reason why I have chosen to go with the lap band, but feel the need to add to this post.
 


First of all - Jill...I loved your reply and I have to say that your thought process is very similar to mine. I made my decision by asking myself the same questions you did. So I am going to say "ditto" on Jill's reply.
 
I feel the main reason people choose bypass surgeries over the lap band is 
 
1) Long term success. I have researched and researched and have found that it is not proven to be any more successful long term than the lap band (as long as you do what you are suppose to, including getting fills)...no different than bypass surgery. People can fail at either, so this all comes down to you - how well you can work with your tool. I believe that every single person with a weight problem has a carb addiction of some sort, to me it's not a mental thing...it's physical. You eat carbs, you crave carbs. With any surgery you HAVE to eat protein first...HAVE TO and after you eat that you are well on your way to full and will eat less carbs, if any at all....therefore want them less and need them less...eat them less.
 
2) Instant gratification! People want to lose it all now now now and this is not important to me what-so-ever. I have always known that losing weight slower is the healthier way to go (in my opinion) There is a reason your hair falls out and a reason you may have body odor when you lose weight quickly....your body is in shock. I know this is only temporary and may not cause any long term problems, but the slow weight loss is only temporary as well. In the end we all end up in the same place (hopefully)...happy, healthier and thinner. I choose to get to that place with no icky side effects.
 
Just my thoughts!
 
Jen
**************************
April 28, 2002
SFCynthia
 
I am one of those people who had the DS, but kinda wishes I had the Lapband. However I do really enjoy the fact I can eat almost normally, and anything I want. I wish I did not have the lower intestine bypassed. The gas/BM smell is really bad and hard to deal with. I can buy a product called Darvom, and I plan to for the weekends when I eat more high carb and dairy foods. I was slightly Lactose Intolerant before the surgery now I am much more so. Milk = bad gas!
 
I am really recommending the Lapband and I second everything Jill said! Right on the nose. IT would great to have some medicine that could do it. Then you could have the band removed and everything would be the same as before.
 


I can eat everything and up to 8 to 12 ounces per meal. So that is a big plus for the DS. They say you can eat everything with the Lapband too. You just have to chew and chew. I wonder if a high protein/low carb diet is OK with the lapband. But you don't suffer from bad gas. I wish I had looked at this more closely. It is a pain to live with. Especially out in public.
 
I have no problem taking my vitamins and have done so all my life. With all three WLS you have to drink lots of water. So that is the same. But with the DS you can eat and drink at the same time. Not so with the RNY or Lapband. I still try not to eat and drink at the same time at this early stage. Sometimes things feel stuck.
 
But I really agree with Jill's well written statement. I am really encouraging people to consider the Lapband over the RNY. I have seem people as big as 379 get the Lapband, and yesterday I spoke with one woman who only had to lose 62 pounds total. I was pretty surprised by that. But with the Lapband that is not so outrageous. And it will keep her from growing to an even bigger size.
 
Cynthia
**********************
May 1, 2002
Fabfatgrl
 
Regarding the Band tightening, in general, it takes a fill (Band adjustment done with saline) to tighten the Band. Some people end up with too tight of a fill, and need to have some fluid removed. In general, they know within a day or two of a fill, and the procedure itself is quite easy. I've yet to hear of anybody's Band automatically tightening to the point of causing damage. I can think of one medical journal article on the permeability of the Band membrane, and how they found a mixture of saline and contrast solution to be a better fill mixture, but that's about it. In general, you lose fill solution, not gain it. You will, however, notice that you have different restrictions at different times of day. Most people are very restricted in the morning, and not as restricted at night.
 
When a Band slips, usually it does not cause much damage. Some slippages can be fixed by removing all of the fluid, which allows the Band to slip back into place. Others involve repositioning or replacing the Band. I have only heard of two instances where the Band could not be replaced at that time. Wayne's is one of those instances. I have not heard of anybody having any permanent damage to their stomach wall from the Band, though. I think that for good Band maintenance, you should plan on having a yearly fluoroscope to check on Band placement and maintenance. In the beginning, it's easy to get your fills done under fluoroscopy..but once you hit goal, I'd also plan on a yearly fluoro to check things out. But hey, that's just me and I'm a radiologist's daughter.
 
I seriously considered the Lap-RNY (had a surgery appointment), Mini-MGB, and DS. In the end, I was concerned about my age (32 at surgery) and vitamins and phytochemicals...so I went for the Lap-Band. I only wish I had done it sooner!
 


Karlawww.geocities.com/karlak68/
292/230-something/222 (mini-goal)
***********************
May 13, 2002
Coffeewench - Robin
 
I've found that it's not as hard as we think. Especially if you're eating mostly good stuff.
 
I had birthday cake yesterday in celebration of both mothers day and my birthday (which is today) and I ate about 2 bites (mostly frosting, I confess) and it was so ooey gooey sweet I literally couldn't eat anymore of it. Normally I would have been STRESSING over making sure I got a corner piece, would it be big enough, could I sneak another piece without being obvious, etc. It would have caused me serious anxiety. It was funny--I ate a couple bites of the cake and was like "ugh, too much sugar" and suddenly my mouth was watering for a bite of beef from the BBQ! LOL Yesterday at our family BBQ I ate a couple thin slices of beef, a little bit of salmon, a piece of garlic bread and then that bit of caked. I was so stuffed I thought I was going to burst!
 
Things change postop. I still have a milkshake every so often, but it makes me painfully full even after 1/4 of it. Theocratically it shouldn't be filling me up, but I'm no longer used to such heavy food all at once anymore.
 
Robin
**********************
May 16, 2002
This Original Thread was posted by Jerry entitled ASomething to discuss and research about the lap-band@ It was regarding the attorneys website.
Response by Coffeewench - Robin follows
****
May 16, 2002
Coffeewench
 
Jill,
 
I=ll go bump my post "statistics lie and stuff" for you.
 
But here's my general take...
 
I'm not worried about those lawyers or their assertion that the FDA Trial reflected poor results.
 
Because let's be honest. The FDA Trial data *did* suck. I can't refute that.
 


But I can point out the reasons for it because I was entrenched in it. Both with my doctors and with Bioenterics, the manufacturer.
 
I was patient number 14 or 15, I don't remember now. Close to that. Before me there had already been 2 reversals to RNYS. From what I was told it was due to "poor results".
 
Now let's evaluate that statement. The trials had only been in place for 2 years at that point. These people had been banded almost a year prior to my banding. Bioenterics has stated over and over again that if you have around 100 pounds to lose it's a TWO YEAR process to get to goal. If you have 200+ pounds to lose it's a 3+ year process to get to goal. Studies in Europe showed that Bandsters continued to lose weight for up to FIVE years post op.
 
Okay, now that we have that background...my doctor was an RNY surgeon. He liked the RNY. Looking back I get the feeling he thought us fat people needed the extra dumping feature. He called an "idiot-proof" surgery and warned me the band would not be. He said that the band would require great cooperation on my part because I would not dump or have malabsorption. Like an obedient puppy dog I nodded and panted and even offered my paw to be shaken just to close the deal!
 
Well when I was about 3 months postop he decided to give me a fill. (The standard is 4 weeks postop, this was his conservative preference). I had only lost 6 lbs. He was upset with me. Told me I wasn't following the rules. Said that I should have lost at least 40 or so pounds by now (like an RNY patient) and he then told me that I'd just lost 3 months of my window of opportunity and that it was closing fast (there *is* no window of opportunity with a band). Then he barely put any fluid in my band. So I was still unrestricted. When I called his office they were mad at me. I remember phrases such as "failure" being thrown around and "noncompliant".
 
Well the difference between myself and the average FDA Trial participant was that I was on a list with 100s of very successful Lapband patients from all over the world who kept on telling me, "what do they expect, you just need a decent fill!" And I believed them out of a blind faith in the fact that most of them were at goal or well towards goal. I called them and told them I was going to go down to Mexico for a fill since they wouldn't work with me. They told me I would be kicked out of trial. It was a hard decision for me, but I went to Mexico and got a really good fill. The weight started DROPPING off. I was just as compliant as before but now the tool was finally properly equipped to work!
 


Also in the first part of the trial they weren't stitching the band to the stomach and it was slipping. They've solved this problem worldwide with a posterior stitch and in some countries they even fold part of the stomach over the band and stitch *that* down. It reduced the slippage rate to 2%. And most slippage is solved by removing fluid and letting the band fall back into place and letting the stomach heal. In rare situations the band is removed.
 
I also remember the surgeons themselves saying that the complication rate is significantly reduced after doing 50 bands. So again, being that the published data was the from the first set of patients, the majority complications were pretty much guaranteed to occur. This is a surgery with a fairly steep learning curve.
 
One last note...one of the categories of removing the band was due to "psychological intolerance". Some people couldn't handle having a foreign object in them and some didn't want to have to give up eating as much as they were.
 
Besides, it's not like you aren't made to sign a bazillion consents as to the risks and that you are knowingly taking said risks. It irks me really bad when people sign and know all the risks and when something happens they feel justified in suing!!
 
Robin
**********************
May 16, 2002
*Jill*
 
Not the ususal questions this time, which I bet you are happy about!  Heehee.  Darn, I forgot to ask how long a hospital stay I can expect. I am having my hiatal hernia fixed as the same time I think. The nurse said that sometimes the hernia gets better just from losing weight, but I thought I HAD to have the repair. Anyway, do you know the time frame of lap-band procedures?  What kind of pain shall I expect? How long should I schedule myself off of work? How long until I can lift stuff again (reasonable weight)? Are their drainage tubes that stay in for a few days like the RNY and DS? Anything else that I need to know?
 
Thanks.  Jill Pre-op lap-band June 24, 2002 - Dr. Khalili at Cedars Sinai
*************
May 16, 2002
Wednesday
 


Hi Jill,  I know you posted this to Robin, but I can give you my stats so you will have an idea of what to expect.  I had my surgery on a Friday at 1:00pm. I was released the next day, Saturday, at 2:00pm. I was back to work that Wednesday for a total of 3 days off of work and working out again in exactly one week post- op. My surgery lasted for 45 minutes. I was in recovery for 2 hours because I vomited from anesthesia and had to be given anti- nauseous meds. I don't remember a lot of this 2 hours. I was kinda gorked out.    The worst of the pain will be the first 24 hours after surgery. They kept me medicated with Demerol every 4 hours. It felt like when you do to many situps, like a sore feeling. The surgeon prescribed me Tylenol w/codeine (liquid) for my home use. I still have some of it! The gas that they use during surgery is the worst to recover from! I had severe gas pains for about a week after surgery. I had to get up every 2 hours at night and walk outside to relieve the gas. The pain lessens gradually over the first week. I had 5 small incisions total which have healed very well. They look like freckles. The port site was sore for about 4- 6 weeks after surgery. Other then that I was perfectly fine in a week.    There are no drainage tubes associated with the band. I think it's because there is no internal cutting being done, but I am not 100% on that. 
One of the things that I had a problem with was going to the restroom. They don't give you a catheter for the lapband. I think it was around 5pm and I had just gotten to my room when I had to go tinkle so bad! It's the IV fluids they keep pumping into you. Made me have to go every 2 hours. My surgeon had left orders that I was not to try to walk until 6 hours out of surgery, which put me at 7:00pm. I couldn't hold it. So the nurse was kind enough to help me us a bed pan. It was like Laurel and Hardy! Very comical! I swore I would hold it until I was able to go on my own! I finally got out of bed at 7:30 and I didn't want to lay back down! It felt so good to get up off my back and walk around! Make sure you have a pair of slippers with soles, not socks! You will be doing a lot of walking on cold, linoleum floors. Everything else I brought just didn't get used. Who is worried about make- up at a time like this?    I don't know what else to tell you. If I remember anything I will post again. I hope some of this will be useful for you!
 
Wednesday  264/170/140
*************************
May 16, 2002
*Jill*
 
Hi Wednesday.   Thank you so much for the detailed response. That helped a lot. I scheduled one week off from work, so I guess I will keep it like that because of the gas stuff. How severe is the gas? Why does walking relieve it?   Only one day in the hospital, wow that is incredible. Will I be able to care for myself or will I need help?   What about the time frame for a hiatial hernia?
 
Jill
**************
May 16, 2002
Coffeewench - Robin
 
Jill
 
Wednesday really spelled it out well.   I was admitted on a Thurs morning, went home Saturday morning. I took Thurs & Fri off work, recuperated over the weekend and went back to work Mon. I was minimally sore. I really only noticed it if I moved wrong. They give you Lortab, the liquid vicodin and it's lovely-- that liquid hits the blood stream fast!


My surgery took 45 minutes. I woke up uncomfortable (you know that horrible first sharp breath you take in) but it quickly subsided as I settled in. I was up and around walking hours after surgery, in fact I liked walking around, I got to meet people. They let me take a shower the next morning (wrapped me in saran wrap-- sexy) so I felt even more human. I gained like 6 lbs before I left the hospital from that darn IV drip but I quickly peed it away. I had NO drainage tubes or any kind of tube in me upon awakening. I was just like-- damn it hurts to breath! But then the pain meds kicked in and I found my happy place.    I think that moving releases the gases from your body from the Lap gas they use to puff you up during surgery. I have to say I've never experienced a single gas pain from both lap surgeries I've had (gallbladder and Lapband) however I think I'm one of the lucky ones.    I've also had a history of "doing surgery well". I'm usually quick to bounce right back both right after surgery and when I get home and get on with life. But suffer me a paper cut...whew...I'm a whiney baby for days...   Oh and I LOVE those leg compression things they put on you after surgery...it's like getting a leg massage...so soothing. The heparin shots every few hours were a scary prospect, but believe it or not, I couldn't even feel them. The needle is SO thin (like an insulin needle) it's painless. And they did mine right in the belly-- ugh.   Bring a good book and wear comfortable clothing there that you can go home in. And slip on shoes. The least amount of bending you can the better. The sorest spot will be the port area and you don't want anything really binding. The less you pack the better.    Okay, and Wednesday, I did require the use of my lipstick tube ;- ).   I wish I could answer the question about the hernia Jill. My good friend had a hernia repaired during surgery but it was abdominal and she was in more pain than I was postop because they had to put some netting material to hold it in and it was pretty tender.    As for time off work I would say a week just to be conservative. It's always better to ask for too much then too little. My port area was sore for several weeks. Noticeably better at 2 weeks postop, but not really "normal" (as in I could lie on my left side comfortably) until about 4 weeks. I'm a left side sleeper so it was hard!  
Robin :- )
*******************
May 16, 2002
*Jill*
 
Thanks so much. I think I am ready now. I am concerned about the gas. I mean, does everyone know when it is released? I cannot do that!
 
Jill
 
************
May 16, 2002
Wednesday
 


Jill,   The gas that I had was really just like burping. It wasn't loud. It just felt like I had a trapped air bubble. As soon as I did a few very unladylike belches I was fine for a few more hours. A lot of people don't even experience this! This is just something that I was so lucky to experience. Hear the sarcasm? Oh, and it was usually only at night that I had this happen. I think it was when I became sedentary that the gases would settle and that is when I would have my problems. The walking for me would work the gas back up. It is late and I am tired so I hope that I am making sense.    Robin, leg compression unit was cool except that I couldn't reach down to remove them when I had to go to the bathroom so I was always calling the poor nurse to help me! I would try to time it with my medication so I could take my meds, get up and walk around relatively pain free and go tinkle.    Jill, One thing that I wished I had taken was my own pillow. I am a big pillow person and I dreamed about my own down pillow all alone at home! Other then that I didn't miss anything.
 
Wednesday


Some Lap Band patients own home pages:
 
http://www.waynesmith.net/lapband/
http://www.geocities.com/karlak68/
http://slamflat.homestead.com/home.html
http://home.pacbell.net/rob-trib/lapband.html
http://www.geocities.com/snorkylowe/links.html
http://www.geocities.com/robinh26/lapband.html
http://www.crosswinds.net/~bandsters/Art%20of%20Band.htm
http://hometown.aol.com/ptchedtke/myhomepage/index.html
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/mali/18/fatcontent.html
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/supergramemr/
http://www.employees.org/~kirsten/
http://www.trisha422t.com
http://www.myagb.homestead.com
http://www.jcg.com/lapband
 
Some Doctor Sites
http://www.lapbandsurgery.com
http://www.lapband.com/english.htm
http://www.drrossfox.com/home.html
http://www.daltonsurgical.com/ponce.html
http://www.hamiltonhealth.org/weight/lapband.asp#weblinks
http://server3.grupored.com.mx/obesity/index.htm
http://www.obesitydocs.com/
http://www.nomoreobesity.com/
http://www.louisvilleweightloss.com
http://www.drclaywellborn.com
http:/www.lstomachbypass.com
http://www.obesity-online.com/Pat_and_docs_info/index.html
 
The AGB Manufacturers:
http://www.bioenterics.com/intl/index.html
http://www.obtechmedical.com/indexie2.html
 
All insurance questions:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BandstersInsurance
Three Bandster Bash 2001 videos
www.obgyn.net/weight/weight.asp
 
Surgery video:http://www.obgyn.net/english/pubs/features/roberta-surg.htm
 
Bandsters e-mail support group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bandsters/join


Adjustment (fill) info:
http://www.obesitylapbandsurgery.com/adjmain.html
http://www.waynesmith.net/lapband/faq/fills.htm
 
Related Bandster Groups:
Australian:  http://www.ozband.com
European site:  http://www.euroband.org
 
Pouch management:
http://www.shelby.net/wizards/larger.htm
http://gastricbypass.netfirms.com/understandingsmallgastricpouch.htm
 
National Institute of Health:
http://www.niddk.nih.gov/health/nutrit/pubs/gastsurg.htm
 
 
Language for Medical Alert Bracelet
Gastroplasty with Lapband
Caution With NG Tube
Use Endoscopy
 
What To Bring To The Hospital
As an experienced hospital guest :) :) I would suggest that you become a minimalist.  I don't go anywhere without make‑up, but I left it all home.
 
Here is the list I suggest:
 
1.  Pillow - only if you need a cervical special one.
2.  Toothbrush/paste
3.  Cottonelle wipes -  They make you pee pee in a container in the toilet to measure the amount.  In case you have back splash, all ya gotta do is wipe.
4.  Hair Brush.
5.  P.J.s if you are staying more than one day. I haven't used a hospital gown since coming back.  I brought one long set (flannel) and one short set (cotton).
6.  Robe if p.j.s are sheer, otherwise really not necessary.
7.  Booties or loose socks.
8.  Slip on shoes to troll the halls.
 
They have soap and stuff.  I have showered every morning and am quite comfortable.
 
Finally, wear loose clothes to the hospital, which you can wear upon being released.
 
Hope this helps.
 


Jill
 

Protein Drinks

 

Okay, I swear this one is delish, if you mix it this way.  On it's own, it is sort of tolerable, but not good.  This brand is the only one I actually like.  I cannot even tolerate any of the other ones I have tried, even after doctoring them up.
 
Designer Whey brand from Trader Joe's - chocolate and vanilla.
 
Get both flavors.
 
In a blender put:
1.5 scoops of chocolate
1.5 scoops of vanilla
1/2 banana or a whole one
2 teaspoons sugar
Drop of vanilla extract (optional)
6-8 ounces of cold water - no ice (I don't like it frothy).
Blend to liquefy - add more water if necessary
 
Sometimes I sprinkle cinnamon/chocolate powder (comes in a jar) on top.
 
Pour over ice and drink with straw.  It is sooooo yummy.
 
Jill